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@alice@lgbtqia.space  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

Why reactive moderation isn't going to cut it, aka, "The Sucker-punch Problem".

Imagine you invite your friend—let's call him Mark—to a club with you. It's open-door, which is cool, because you like when a lot of folx show up. Sure, it might get a little rowdy, but they have a bouncer, and you've never seen things getting out of hand.

So, you're busy dancing when a new guy walks in wearing a "I Hate Mark" shirt and promptly sucker-punches Mark. You didn't see it happen, but Mark is upset and tells the bouncer, who kicks the guy out.

A few minutes later, the same guy walks back in and sucker-punches Mark again. Same result. Some people in the club say they'll tell the bouncer if they see him come in again.

Mark wants to leave, but you tell him it's not that bad—after all, you've never been punched, and you didn't see Mark get punched, so maybe he's just being sensitive.

A different guy walks in wearing a "I Plan On Punching Mark" shirt. No one tells the bouncer, because they've never seen *this* guy punch Mark.

He sucker-punches Mark. At this point, Mark is pissed and yelling about being punched.

The club members talk about putting up a "No Punching Mark" sign, but the owner is worried it'll hurt his club's growth.

Another Mark in the club proposes they turn away anyone wearing an anti-Mark shirt or espousing anti-Mark rhetoric at the door, but this gets shot down for the same reason as the sign idea—then someone sucker-punches him.

By the end of the night, your friend Mark is beat to fuck and says he'll never come to this club again. In fact, he's going to tell anyone named Mark to stay clear of this place.

The next time you go to the club, half the folx there are wearing "I Kill Marks" shirts, but there aren't any Marks there, so it doesn't come up.

I've been sucker-punched every day, for the last three days in a row by some of the most vile hate-speech and imagery. The accounts are using open registration servers and signing up with variations on the username "heilhitler1488". I fully expect it'll continue as long as we have open registration servers.

And no, username pattern blocking alone won't fix this, it'll help a little, but mostly it'll just make them wear a different shirt while they sucker-punch us.

#OpenRegistrationHurts

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GoodNewsGreyShoes🔞
GoodNewsGreyShoes🔞
@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art replied  ·  activity timestamp 7 days ago

@alice This is an *exceptional* analogy, & it REALLY needs to be taken more seriously!!👀💯

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🅰🅻🅸🅲🅴  (🌈🦄)
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@alice@lgbtqia.space replied  ·  activity timestamp 6 days ago

@GoodNewsGreyShoes thank you.

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william.maggos
william.maggos
@wjmaggos@liberal.city replied  ·  activity timestamp 2 weeks ago

@alice

server admins are notified when their users are moderated. if a server doesn't do enough to shut down its users who harass users on other servers, it should be defederated. whether that's because they refuse to do that work or can't keep up with new users because they have open registration. if we had a ton of servers popping up constantly with harassers, I'd then support more of an opt in approach. I don't know how you could get admins who don't police harassment to close registration.

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Franceska Mann
Franceska Mann
@FranceskaMann@freeradical.zone replied  ·  activity timestamp 2 weeks ago

@alice

BLOCK evil doers. Please. Starve them.

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Becca 🌳🚀🛀
Becca 🌳🚀🛀
@rlcw@ecoevo.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 2 weeks ago

@alice This sucks.

With server bans, doesn't fedi offer the option to keep a "club" more restricted to those instances which have invite only rules and/or active moderation, so you have more protection from open registration servers? That would be my expectation, but I don't run my own, so may be overlooking something.

Is this is a mastodon.social is too open and to big to ban problem again?

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Netscape Navigator
Netscape Navigator
@NetscapeNavigator@social.vivaldi.net replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

@alice

So, you’ve actually just supported an argument I made a while back — that the Fediverse needs AI. I first made this point during the major spam attack that hit the Fediverse last year.

Here’s why: if the goal is to grow the Fediverse, registration can’t be invitation-only. Right now, Fediverse software isn’t as user-friendly as mainstream platforms like Reddit, Twitter, or Facebook. Making it even more exclusive would only slow growth further, or even stop it internally.

I say this from experience. I remember how online forums tried to handle spam, bots, and trolls — by making registration harder. Some required manual review or moderator approval. That worked for a while, but it also made those communities less welcoming and more difficult to join. Over time, most forums faded away.

At the same time, keeping registration completely open invites bad actors, trolls, and spam. It’s a tough balance — too open, and the space gets toxic; too closed, and it stops growing. That’s exactly where AI could help: by automatically handling spam, filtering bad behavior, and letting real users in without creating unnecessary barriers.

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Strypey
Strypey
@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied  ·  activity timestamp last week

(1/2)

@NetscapeNavigator
> the Fediverse needs AI

As others have pointed out, this statement is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. If you use "AI" in this way you will be frequently misunderstood. Especially in the fediverse, where there is a strong bias against #MOLE Training that spreads to anything described as "AI".

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Strypey
Strypey
@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied  ·  activity timestamp last week

(2/2)

@NetscapeNavigator
> I first made this point during the major spam attack that hit the Fediverse last year

I suggest saying "pattern-matching moderation tools" or somesuch, and making (or linking) more specific proposals. For example, an automated tool that looked for unusual patterns of posting, and alerted the mods to some example posts (maybe by hooking into the existing Report workflow). Maybe talk to @iftas folks like @jaz about any research they've done into the viability of this.

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datum (n=1)
datum (n=1)
@datum@zeroes.ca replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

@NetscapeNavigator

so in a subtoot @alice said

I should specify that I mean "moderated registration" not "invite-only" or "no signups" when I've been saying closed registration here.

[edit for correctness] and in parallel you said:

I say this from experience. I remember how online forums tried to handle spam, bots, and trolls — by making registration harder. Some required manual review or moderator approval. That worked for a while, but it also made those communities less welcoming and more difficult to join. Over time, most forums faded away.

and, Netscape, I think you're not really doing the math well here. Alice has pointed out it takes them on average less than a minute to vet a new account application. It takes longer to write - but if a user can't be bothered to write a paragraph about themselves asking to join a server, are they really going to contribute to discussions? It is not gatekeeping. It is not onerous to have applications take a day to approve.

More importantly, it is not "less welcoming" to have a policy of no bad actors. It is more welcoming.

The sign up friction is not a concern in this way, and in fact is likely positive as there are studies showing that paying even a nominal amount of money or energy for a thing makes a person value that thing much more, which implies much greater stickiness, if growth of actual community members is your goal.

(Growth of new signups who never post should not be your goal.)

So.

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Strypey
Strypey
@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied  ·  activity timestamp last week

(1/2)

@datum
> but if a user can't be bothered to write a paragraph about themselves asking to join a server

... then they're not going to fill out their profile, which means they will struggle to find anyone to follow or even interact with them. So here's a #UX suggestion; somehow combine the 2.

Ask them what their profile text would say if they're accepted, and have accepting the account autopopulate the profile with that text.

#FediverseUX #accessibility

@NetscapeNavigator @alice

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Strypey
Strypey
@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied  ·  activity timestamp last week

(2/2)

Maybe that would be a less intimidating question for shy people to answer than 'why do you want to join'. Which, as other replies to @alice point out, can be misinterpretated as 'please justify your existence'.

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The Snowy Owlbear ⛄❄️🌨️🏳️‍🌈
The Snowy Owlbear ⛄❄️🌨️🏳️‍🌈
@cocaine_owlbear@retro.pizza replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

@alice I kinda wanna pin this to my account, but I didn't write it.

Apologizing seems so hollow, but this just fucking sucks, and I'm sorry it keeps happening to you (and everyone else it happens to).

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Becca 🌳🚀🛀
Becca 🌳🚀🛀
@rlcw@ecoevo.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 2 weeks ago

@alice Hm, and invite only mechanism to federate with instances would be nice, I guess. Something to make it easy for mods to grow their instances next work in a safer way, that also allows them to choose how open or closed they want to be.

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BT Free is a non-profit organization founded by @ozoned@btfree.social . It's goal is for digital privacy rights, advocacy and consulting. This goal will be attained by hosting open platforms to allow others to seamlessly join the Fediverse on moderated instances or by helping others join the Fediverse.

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