Post
@cpm asks about "Wear Bright Clothes!"
Around here, there have been two severe cyclist:driver collisions after dark along a particularly noxious reach of stroad recently.
Lots of soc media chatter, and >90% heavily in the victim blame camp.
Q7. How is this possible when "bright" winter garments don't really exist?
(And how do we change the framing and conversation?)
#BikeNiteQ #BikeNite #BikeTooter #Cycling #MastoBikes cc @bikenite
A7. What colour was the car? Has anyone l ever heard of a driver of a black car being blamed because it wasn't covered in hi-viz reflective tape?
Let's not give victim-blaming ignorance any extra oxygen.
A7 the whole bright colours thing is just victim blaming bollocks. As long as you have the legal minimum bike lights, you shouldn't need to wear anything special to be seen. Sure if you want to, knock yourself out, make the fashion statement. But peer pressuring other cyclists about "being seen" can sod right off. No amount of high Vis is going to stop an inattentive driver.
@quixoticgeek @ascentale @cpm @bikenite
Last night I was almost cut down by a car going out from a parking for the housing area. The driver was very intently looking right down the bus-road exiting on the street. He did not look to the left at all where I was coming from. On separate bike road next to the street. No amount of visibility gear could make him see me. I wear high visibility yellow jacket, good bike light and reflexes. All I saw of his head was the back. Mabe I get an air horn next
Fluorescent clothing only really works during a very small window at dawn/dusk and many studies have shown the only clothing worth using is with reflective bits on moving body parts (E.g. Feet, ankles, legs) and even then it's of limited use.
The only use for bright clothing imho is to avoid the "why aren't you dressed like a Christmas tree?" comment from a driver after they've knocked you off, although I've even had that when wearing hi viz gloves and helmet!
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite #BikeNite A7. More on the flashing light vs. constant light question. Flashing lights are definitely more visible than constant lights, but they should not blink faster than 1-4 Hz (times per second), and they should not be overly bright. They are for visibility, not wayfinding. They may, however, be illegal in some juridisctions and/or circumstances.
I am a big, big fan of the Cat Eye Omni 3 lights, which take 2xAAA batteries. They can be constant or flashers.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7 retroreflective material on the bike and on clothes and good lights are sufficient. It doesn’t matter what colour your clothes are in the dark really. Because it’s dark 😉 #bikenite
@wlukewindsor @ascentale @cpm @bikenite I would add to this that reflectivity on moving parts is vastly superior to reflectivity on non-moving parts, but you should also have reflectors on the non-moving bits.
@gcvsa @ascentale @cpm @bikenite retroreflective tape and stickers can be a great solution and also fun (I had some retroreflective skulls on a helmet once). I have used it on cranks and chain stays before (following your advice)
I have ridden as guide (same route same time) with inexperienced mixed groups, all female experienced, and a rugby club. The dreadful scumbag drivers to a man (and yes it mainly is men) gave the hulking gnarly rugby payers plenty of room and close passed the other two groups. The all female group got significant cat calls and terrible comments. It is sad macho intolerance
Most of the danger is imposed upon us by drivers, it is neither necessary nor inevitable
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite Q7 - I wear a #Proviz jacket for my commute. The whole thing is reflective - can’t get better than that. Also multiple lights! Someone shouted at me when they drove past the other week saying, ‘you look like a f***ing Christmas tree’. #bikenite
@ascentale @cpm #bikeNite A7 a "cyclist" is a professional or recreational athlete engaged in sport unfit for public roads while a [definitely amateur] driver is just going to work or the store or home from the bar in their socially-mandated transportation/murder box and couldn't care less what pressure they're running. Infrastructure needs to stop accommodating mindless excessive driving enough to make room for casual black hoodie utility cycling by users of all ages & abilities of DGAF 20psi
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. I'll answer in two ways - How do we change the framing? and Is there a need for better visibility & how.
What changed the way I view things (as someone who grew up in the same windshield-view reporting that all USians do) was being on Twitter and seeing cycle advocates there who would talk back to the framing all the time, but in ways that were not offputting to me - not super-obnoxious, but just pointing out logically (and not always without righteous #BikeNite
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite anger) when TV/newspaper/magazine/radio/podcast reports or features were pre-emptively shifting blame from drivers to cyclists and pedestrians. It's usually not an instant conversion, but if people point it out - especially in the really egregious cases where a cyclist or pedestrian is killed and instead of giving condolences in the comments, people are blaming the cyclist or pedestrian in cases where it's very very clear it's the driver or the car-centric #BikeNite
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite infra or both - it does eventually help change the minds of reasonable people. And that's all you'll ever convert. You cannot change the minds of people who are not reasonable. But you can slowly win over those who are, especially if you point out terrible "journalism" where media is basically publishing a cop report verbatim without quoting it as the cop report. And you go on to point out how many cops have this windshield view of things...how their reports #BikeNite
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite are not unbiased.
Now, the next thing is are lights and brighter clothing necessary? I'd say it's really context-dependent. Talking about it universally is not taking this into account. It's not just dependent on the nation, but urban vs. rural, and how that area's infrastructure and culture are.
Davis is "bike-friendly" yet during the few times I'd drive (and as a cyclist I ALWAYS look hard for vulnerable road users), I'd get a shock when suddenly a #BikeNite
@meganL @ascentale @cpm @bikenite
#BikeNite
The issue of hi-vis is interesting. I have two points:
1) Recently, while driving in my neighborhood after dark, a person in all black was walking their dog crossing an unlit intersection. Though I look for pedestrians, I did not see the person until already into my turn and my headlights finally were on the person. Fortunately I drive extra slowly in residential areas and had plenty of time to stop. A little hi vis would have avoided this. 1/2
@meganL @ascentale @cpm @bikenite
#BikeNite
2) I've counted the courteous vs discourteous drivers on rides before, and come to 1 of a 100 might be out to get you, while 99 are not. (It happens to match the percentage of sociopaths in the population). I ride well lit up after dark and hi vis all the time for the 99 and take my chances with the 1 that might target me anyway. 2/2
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite salmon cyclist all in grey or black rolled up on me. There were areas of Davis with no street lights and it would be very hard to see people if they didn't happen to be where your car headlights were.
As others have pointed out, there are places in Denmark or Netherlands where cyclists are perfectly safe without bright clothing, etc.
I am currently sojourning in Albania and if I can get a recumbent trike here, I will be riding. And my approach will #BikeNite
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite different than it has been in car-centric places I've ridden in the US because while car-centric, the infrastructure here is different and the driving & cycling culture are different. I need to come up with a safe strategy for *these* conditions.
So while I take great exception to victim blaming in the press and in social media comments, I personally also adapt to the reality of where I am. If I have to wear hi-viz to not get creamed, I will. I will #BikeNite
A7. I agree that it so often comes down to blaming the cyclist for being hit by a car, but the solution to no bright winter clothes might be a dayglo and reflective vest of some sort. They're easy enough to come by, surely, and generally easy to wear.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. First: For a carbrain it is *always* the biker to be blamed. Framing will not change, if media head lines keep saying that a car hit a cyclist, although a person behind the wheel did it.
Second: I wear a warm rain resistent jacket, which is red. I wear a helmet that highly reflects any light in the dark.
I am surely visible, even at night. Except some car drivers don't want to see me.
#bikenite
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7.
I find lights (day & night) & reflectives are more useful than bright colours. Particularly at dawn/dusk.
But, cycling should be an activity for everyday people in everyday clothes.
There's so much victim blaming in this area it makes me uncharacteristically ranty. I don't see people questioning why many cars have low visibility paintwork.
People often ask me about riding through the night. Isn't it dangerous, aren't you worried? No, it's not. It's generally very quiet & much safer. People in cars are generally what make roads dangerous, not an absence of sunlight.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite Bright Winter garments absolutely do exist, as do safety vests that go over outerwear. I wear black, anyway. I ride mostly at night, year-round, all weather.
I wear a white helmet with 3M Scotchlite retroflective decals. My black outerwear has reflective tabs. My ebike lights up like a holiday, both steady and flashing lights, with reflectors front, sides, and rear, and dual mirrors.
Curing #CarBrain is not easy, and is a whole topic in and of itself.
@gcvsa
all fair,again
was in our locally owned & operated 'outdoors' shop a few weeks back.
climbing, backpacking, skiing, etc
*No* 'brightly coloured' garments to be found outside of the kids section.
it's that odd drift we've been seeing for a while now.
the hoa planned townhome suburb thing with the brain-deadening muted pallet of colour.
even most cars are some shade of roadway paving on a damp overcast day
There was a funny picture floating around: a crowded Victorian-era streetscape. Except all the ladies and gentlemen were wearing hi-viz vests over their frock coats.
Pedestrians have always been there, crossing streets, dressed in black.
Cars have gone faster & faster until human drivers can't recognize and avoid a pedestrian, unless the ped is blazing with 1000 suns.
It's a car+speed problem.
I ran some numbers a couple years ago, and if I recall, cyclists in Copenhagen suffer fewer deaths per million km traveled than drivers in Dublin.
Cyclists wearing no hi-viz, and no helmets.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite as for bright winter garments not existing, the link I sent to my mom for a great Xmas gift to me was https://hivissafety.com/products/hi-vis-plaid-quilted-flannel-shirt-jacket-with-reflective-striping?variant=40319764332625
How to change the framing and conversation? I think we need to talk more about drivers and killers.
That is to say the people who can handle multiton death machines and treat it with respect vs. the people who watch TV or whatever instead of controlling the tons of catastrophe they are behind the wheel of.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7: personally I am not much for reflective garments. I have a brightly coloured helmet since those are mandatory here.
I use lights all the time, at night I'll generally add a flashing front light to the constant one, and try to have a flashing rear as well as the constant rear one. My bikes also have reflective table wherever I can fit some on.
But mostly I avoid roads that look dangerous if I possibly can. I'd rather ride the extra 10% on safer streets.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7: I like to point out the number of motorists who drive into rubbish trucks every year. The stats can be mildly annoying to find, but in Australia someone dies most years as a result of such a collision.
Yeah, sure, I'll make myself more visible than a great big truck covered in reflective tape with a flashing orange light on it 🙄
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite a7 #bikeNite don't change the conversation incrementally, point out the big things:
* the stroad existing is a safety issue for everyone.
* a road is not good cycling infrastructure. At least a federated bike path is needed, if not a completely different route
* use the fact that two cyclists were killed as evidence of the above and that existing infrastructure is daengnrous and therefore current cycling numbers are depressed
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite and finally that those in charge are responsible for any future deaths if their actions are inadequate.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. I don’t know how to change the framing & convo. Focusing on changing how police are looking at and talking about crashes feels important. In a pedestrian fatality here recently, the police immediately started talking about how the pedestrian was under the influence of alcohol. There is nothing that makes that illegal. So, again, poor infrastructure puts people at risk. #BikeNite
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. Victim blaming is a load of garbage. The last bicyclist killed in a crash in my area was hit by someone who it sounds like was under the influence of drugs/alcohol. High viz can’t fix lack of protective infrastructure.
That said, I have built-in lights on my bike & they are on all the time. I also wear a highly reflective vest when biking at night. My teen is more likely to bike after dark & I focus on him taking protected routes as much as possible. #BikeNite
A7. My heaviest winter jersey is black, with a few reflective spots. I'd much prefer a brighter color and more reflective bits, but it was a gift. I also wish all cycling gloves had reflective patches, palms and backs, to make my hand signals stand out!
I've added reflective strips to my helmet. I had some on my old rims -- need to get some for the new rims.
Both my bicycles have lights front and rear -- dynamo on the gravel bike -- and various reflective bits 'n' bobs.
@oheso @ascentale @cpm @bikenite I was once aggressively ‘educated’ by a driver who said I needed reflective gloves after I had clearly signalled to change into a right turn lane (in the UK). My gloves were reflective (as was my gilet, overshoes and mudguards). Draw your own depressing conclusions ;-)
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite #bikenite A7: I've spend a few years working in industrial environments and Hi-Viz makes a *huge* difference in those environments. As a driver I've also found that lights, reflectors, etc make a big difference in identifying and locating cyclists. So, yeah I try to stick to bright colours for gear (also helps stop overheating in the sun) and if I'm on the road at dusk or dawn or night I'll run lights front and back and generally a hi-viz orange-and-reflective vest over everything else.
Okay, so I shouldn't *have to* but there's not much point being right and dead.
I'm also not at all shy about using pedestrian paths / crossings / etc where that's safer for me (and safe for pedestrians).
A7: I ride with a steady tail light, a steady headlight, and a reflective triangle on my saddle bag (that also incidentally has a reflective strip). I do not wear hi-vis myself. Occasionally I will have reflective accessories, but they must fit whatever outfit I have for the day.
I absolutely will not let motonormativity dictate my sense of fashion, on or off the bike.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. In my opinion, retroreflective surfaces and lights are more effective in the dark than brightly-colored clothing. I ride with extra lights on my frame and back this time of year.
That said, people victim blame cyclists constantly, and wearing brighter clothing won't necessarily help. I try not to take this attitude to heart too much.
@bikenite @ascentale @cpm #BikeNite A7
Not knowing specifics of these incidents, in general:
(1) Cyclists *must* use lights (tail & front) when cycling in low-light. Reflective clothing is a *must*. Can find reflective vests to fit over any winter garments.
(2) Framing: do adequate, separated bike lanes exist? Are they plowed in winter? Demand walk/bike/wheelchair accessibility for all, year-round. Enforce car speed limits. See (1).
@MarkBrigham
Again
fair
(imo, *all* is fair in these/this discussion)
as to specifics,
consider plz, the 'invisible' cyclist
this cyclist is oft riding to/from work in the off hours, to clean rooms, run the grill, stock the shelves, etc
serving coffee out the drivethru window
they are unseen
hundreds of $$ for all conditions, all weather garment kit ain't in the budget.
the pretty good used cabela's camo parka from the goodwill otoh, ,
@MarkBrigham @bikenite @ascentale @cpm
Only mentioning bc a lack of rear light is sometimes used for victim blaming & racial profiling, but
(1) a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front; and (2) a red reflector of a type approved by the Department of Public Safety
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/169.222
Minnesota, for better or worse, doesn't require a taillight. I *do* give-out $5 light sets to kids I see at night, but taillight isn't required by law here
@NNN @cpm @bikenite @ascentale
Thanks for posting. The law is indeed more nuanced than I stated. Particularly
Subd 6(b).
And good for you for handing out tail lights! 👏 👏 👏
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7 in my town I cannot help but see our Sunday morning social riders as they have a rule in their group that they all wear flourescent yellow. Just like road-workers and tradies wear. Not cool or funky but definitely visible.
Personally I hate that squashed cyclists get blamed because of their clothing choices. It's a bit like rapists blaming their victims because of their wardrobe choices.
@tregeagle @bikenite @ascentale @cpm
Conditionally agree:
“Personally I hate that squashed cyclists get blamed because of their clothing choices.” As long as the cyclist was responsible & used appropriate bike lighting and hi-vis/reflective kit for low-light conditions.
As both a cyclist and motorist, I’ve come across some very difficult-to-see cyclists. Ya gotta be visible out there.
Safer infrastructure & speed limits too!
@MarkBrigham @tregeagle @bikenite @ascentale @cpm
Going to disagree. As the car driver, it has to be all on you. You're the one driving a multi tonne piece of metal at speeds we never evolved to cope with.
@tregeagle @bikenite @cpm @v_perjorative @ascentale It is incumbent upon the cyclist to be seen if cycling in low-light conditions. Minimally, meet all laws/regulations on lighting and reflective materials.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite maybe A7: "shoulda had a brighter car."
_Life After Cars_ talks about this a little too, though honestly I was a little disappointed by it in some ways. Still, it has some decent ideas.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. I live in a rural area. I will not ride after dark, except for #24HoursOfBooty which is a protected route with no cars and police protection. There's just no way to do it safely here.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite A7. If your bike has solid lights, the drivers have no excuses. Flashing lights are hard to locate spatially, and one study found that drunk drivers steered TOWARD them. Flashing lights are illegal in many European countries for analogous reasons: they are not safe. #BikeNite
@spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite I will also say, as a pedestrian, flashing lights on a bike path are really unpleasant and disorienting in a way solid lights are not.
@birdoneday @ascentale @cpm @bikenite When I'm on my bike, I get absolutely annoyed by flashing lights on other people's bikes. They're distracting rather than informative.
@spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite I think a rear red blinker can be okay, but a head-on flasher is just ROUGH.
@spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite Target fixation (veering towards flashing lights) is indeed a thing at night. Can’t find the article Ibwas looking for right now but it’s a factor in aircraft safety at night.
Flashing lights are more conspicuous than steady ones but afford impoverished directional and locational cues. Not so great in the pitch black on the road when you want people to navigate around you accurately!
@spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite are flashing lights better in daylight?
@LovesTha @spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite
yes. Static lights blend into the visual clutter. Flashing lights attract your attention.
@LovesTha
Why the deuce would you use lights in daylight?
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite
Just that little bit of extra visibility of using bike lights during the day may get a driver to see you and not run into you. Especially drivers pulling out of driveways or coming in from side streets.
Yes, I agree that drivers should be alert enough to see me even without daytime lights. But I'll take any edge I can get.
#BikeNite A7
@spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite I've nearly caused a head on crash driving a car because I didn't see the oncoming car in near ideal conditions, since that experience I run my car headlights constantly, it really helps.
Why not the same when on a road as a cyclist?
@spacehobo @LovesTha @ascentale @cpm @bikenite aside: my commute bike has a dynamo, so "laziness" is why I use lights in daylight. I agree there's not a need for it though.
For a question that asks "how do we change the framing" there sure are a lot of answers which are tied to the current frame. The moral onus on every road user is to be able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear, and this does not mean "the distance I can see to be clear provided that everything is retroreflective". Bricks, animals, fallen trees, potholes aren't wearing hiviz.
I'll make reasonable efforts to be visible to drivers at night because too many of them are not able to stop etc etc, but let's not lose track of where the actual onus lies here.
@dan @spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite oh, my direct answer is how things need to have the frame changed, but the side discussion of how to make the best of the shit situations we all live in is a reasonable conversation. If off topic.
(And my first reply in this thread was without knowing what question was being answered)
@spacehobo @LovesTha @ascentale @cpm @bikenite daytime running lights.
On busy roads there's so much visual clutter, that bikes need something to stand out. I use flashing lights front and rear during the day if there's any chance of going onto the road.
@spacehobo @ascentale @cpm @bikenite I didn't realize that for some reason I figured flashing would cause drivers to notice them better - but maybe that's my pinball mentality where flashing lights are the ones you wanna shoot (but uh now that I typed that it would mean I would wanna run over the flashing lights!) so I will switch mine to solid vs flashing! thx!
@genex
there's a thing
&
it's a real thing
first studied (as best I remember) as far back as the 1950s
'Target Fixation'
Esp if even mildly impaired, folks will often just absent-mindedly drift *toward* a blinking light
if not thinking clearly, not fully aware, they will stare at it, and as a result subconsciously steer toward it.
not on purpose of course,
just what they do.
@genex @ascentale @cpm @bikenite Flashing was the only way to go back when we used C cells to power incandescent bulbs, but these days we have LEDs and LiPo batteries that can just run forever! I have my lights powered by a dynamo in the front hub, so I never even think about them: if I'm moving, they're on!
@spacehobo @genex @ascentale @cpm @bikenite This idea that flashing lights are not safe is not supported by evidence. There are other studies that show that flashing lights are safer than steady lights.
@ascentale @cpm @bikenite
#bikenite A7.
My wife found a bright orange winter cycling jacket for me.
Before that I would throw a cycling windbreaker over several layers, or a construction safety vest over a winter coat.
@MartyCormack @ascentale @cpm @bikenite Mesh construction safety vests are easy to layer on top of any outfit.
My dad got me a nice one when I went off to college with my bike, and I wear it any time I'm actually going somewhere and not just fooling around on bike paths.
I have friends who bike in all black because they think being visible encourages "target fixation" in drivers, but I find people give me more space and consideration the better they can see me.
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