@firefoxwebdevs
This is - I believe - the best UX so far. If a feature is activated *after* a user interaction, this is good enough opt-in approach, that also balances a little marketing. I, for example, would like an AI tab grouper; but I wouldn't be able to know it exists if I dont firefox changelog (that avg user never do).
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@firefoxwebdevs Thanks for giving me the kick I needed to start my next coding endeavour. I’ve checked out the Servo repo and will be looking at ways I can contribute to a next gen AI free browser.
@firefoxwebdevs Still not coming back. 👋
(I LOVE the new video format! 🥰😻)
@wojtek it's so nice that Mastodon does 60fps.
Although, sorry, I'll be back in my garage for the web feature videos
@firefoxwebdevs uhm… bummer 😉 I'll try to live with that ( <hand on the forhead>farewall cruel world</hand on the forehead> 😉 )
@firefoxwebdevs We said "NO!!". You are about to lose MANY users.
@firefoxwebdevs Would it be possible to have a separate build of Firefox containing just the browser?
@firefoxwebdevs just take it all out and make them browser extensions, like they should be
@firefoxwebdevs Thank you for the option. But why can't I trust that you won't reactivate this option behind my back after a few updates? 🤔
Oh, I know... That's maybe because you've already abused this mechanism in the past with pushing 'sponsored suggestions' on my search bar, homepage, search engines, etc... 😒
@davidrevoy @firefoxwebdevs i would trust the person writing the mastodon posts here to tell you. I dont know him personally, but he acts very different than mozilla management.
It is @jaffathecake
@firefoxwebdevs finally.
Can I trust it or it was vibe coded? 😆
@firefoxwebdevs it's like putting a bomb on my wheelchair and saying "don't worry, you can turn it off and will only be activated once you've interacted with the bomb"
@firefoxwebdevs Make it an extension that I can ignore. Until then, I'm sticking with #Waterfox.
@firefoxwebdevs Make it an optional extension.
@firefoxwebdevs Question: did Mozilla heard and considered 966 answers (on their own blog, so not so fedi biased) and why not?
https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/building-ai-the-firefox-way-shaping-what-s-next-together/m-p/113012
@firefoxwebdevs It's good that you are bucking the trend and even putting controls in at all, but AI features are such that they absolutely require informed consent
Which means default off
@firefoxwebdevs Got a crazy idea guys, which I think will go down as a great move for both AI lovers and non-AI people.
How about... and stay with me here, I'm trying to be fair to both parties... how about... providing AI and non-AI builds for firefox?!
AI lovers can get the AI one, non-AI people can download the non-AI one. Everyone's happy, and all of this hate and anger can go away.
Us non-AI people don't want AI slop in our software... at all.. even if it can be turned off (for now!). Just compile a version without it!!
Call me, let's talk... but don't actually call me, I hate the phone.
@paul well, if we created binaries for all combinations of the current 5 features, that would be 32x-ing the number of binaries per build. And I think people would still be unhappy depending on which was seen as the default.
The AI Controls give an easy way to have that granular control, and you don't need to switch binary just to try a feature.
@firefoxwebdevs is there a way to:
- do this via about:config?
- keep local translations enabled?
@schrottkatze about:config is a less reliable way to configure Firefox, but I'm not sure if the setting are reflected there.
The video in the previous post shows blocking all current and future AI features, then specifically re-enabling local translations.
@firefoxwebdevs oki good
I'd love if this stuff is either configurable via about:config or policies, since I'm able to generate those via nix but im not able access the normal settings which caused me quite some long nights of cursing and debugging in the past
@schrottkatze I guess try the setting, and see what changes in the profile.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
#AI enhancements being enabled by default is a #DarkPattern abuse from #Firefox.
Please make these #privacy violating tools opt-in, as #European law requires.
#AI enhancements being enabled by default is a #DarkPattern abuse from #Firefox.
Please make these #privacy violating tools opt-in, as #European law requires.
@giacomo the features don't do anything until you interact with them (like in this screenshot).
At this point, a local model is downloaded, and the processing is done entirely on device, preserving privacy.
Same goes for translation. It happens on device whereas most other browsers send the text off-device.
@firefoxwebdevs @giacomo What about accidental clicks? Fuck you and your browser.
@firefoxwebdevs @giacomo
If it presents the option and doesn't say what it's doing that's not informed consent.
The "first launch" popups that y'all normally do with a descriptive splash screen and a big button that can be skipped to enable the features in the first place is a *perfect* place to present it where people who do want it will see it
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
So people can trigger a download by error clicking on that huge popup wide button, right?
Isn't that a well studied example of #DarkPattern?
How many times such button will be shown? Each time a user create a new tab or only the first time?
Each time you raise the probability of erroneous click!
Please make these #AI enhancements fully opt-in.
So people can trigger a download by error clicking on that huge popup wide button, right?
Isn't that a well studied example of #DarkPattern?
How many times such button will be shown? Each time a user create a new tab or only the first time?
Each time you raise the probability of erroneous click!
Please make these #AI enhancements fully opt-in.
@giacomo it doesn't show for each tab - it's when creating a tab group. The AI Controls let you hide these entry points.
And again, I want to stress that these are local models, so privacy is preserved.
@giacomo I guess your point about mis-clicks equally applies to permission prompts. The good news is this can be, in both cases, undone.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
Not quite
The point is that permission prompts are shown when a permission is required to fulfill a user request.
To create a tab group in #Firefox you do not need #AI, so such popup-wide, easy to mis-click, button is a gratuitous waste of user attention. It's just an #ads of a feature that you want people to use and get used to.
As for this being #privacy preserving: where are the models downloaded from? Is it a #CDN that could identify otherwise logged users by their IP and thus learning about the fact they use such model? And how often Firefox will chech for model updates?
Not quite
The point is that permission prompts are shown when a permission is required to fulfill a user request.
To create a tab group in #Firefox you do not need #AI, so such popup-wide, easy to mis-click, button is a gratuitous waste of user attention. It's just an #ads of a feature that you want people to use and get used to.
As for this being #privacy preserving: where are the models downloaded from? Is it a #CDN that could identify otherwise logged users by their IP and thus learning about the fact they use such model? And how often Firefox will chech for model updates?
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@firefoxwebdevs TY, this is a nice feature 🩷
I have nothing else to (constructively) add, more that I agree with the points that it should be opt-in and perhaps some of the alarmist language / design be toned down. Still a step in the right direction, so that's great to see.
@alextecplayz fwiw, the individual features are, to some extent, opt in. As in, AI models are not downloaded and used until you engage with the feature, e.g. via the "Suggest more of my tabs" button.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
Please invert the default: let people who want #AI enhancements enable them in the settings.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
Please invert the default: let people who want #AI enhancements enable them in the settings.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
@giacomo @alextecplayz I don't think it's particularly unusual to offer features at the point they might be useful. This follows the pattern of e.g. asking for microphone permission. You're asked at a time that it might be useful to you, you don't have to say yes, and there are ways to avoid ever being asked.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Microphone permissions never require going to the settings menu if you don't want to be asked again, you (when initially presented with them) just click "Don't ask again -> No" in the same menu you'd "opt into" them.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social @giacomo@snac.tesio.it @alextecplayz@techhub.social Adding a second button next to the "AI Feature" simply stating "Don't show these again" that either immediately disables it, or disables it and opens a new tab with the preferences menu in that tab, is a way better UX flow.
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@firefoxwebdevs
This is - I believe - the best UX so far. If a feature is activated *after* a user interaction, this is good enough opt-in approach, that also balances a little marketing. I, for example, would like an AI tab grouper; but I wouldn't be able to know it exists if I dont firefox changelog (that avg user never do).
@alvan@social.lol
#Firefox doesn't "balance a little marketing": in the screenshot provided by @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social you can see at least two #DarkPatterns at work:
And note that this has nothing to do with your personal preferences or people reading changelogs: as others have pointed out, if Firefox is so eagger to let people know about the new AI features, the could just showcase them just after update, providing a non misleading button to enabled each of them, like many other software do: https://ui-patterns.com/patterns/Guided-tour
As it stands, and given the alternatives, Mozilla #UX is overly malicious and I guess it would not pass any serious #GDPR compliance check.
Indeed I still wait for an answer to these questions: https://snac.tesio.it/giacomo/p/1770122154.401646
I guess it's because those model are updated frequently from #BigTech's servers around the world and Mozilla doesn't want people to realize how often their online status is revealed to such corporations through update checks by their " #privacy friendly" Firefox AI.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
#Firefox doesn't "balance a little marketing": in the screenshot provided by @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social you can see at least two #DarkPatterns at work:
- a popup-wide button
- no mention of #AI whatsoever: "Suggest more of my tabs" is a very misleading label for "opt-in into AI controlled tabs from now on"!
And note that this has nothing to do with your personal preferences or people reading changelogs: as others have pointed out, if Firefox is so eagger to let people know about the new AI features, the could just showcase them just after update, providing a non misleading button to enabled each of them, like many other software do: https://ui-patterns.com/patterns/Guided-tour
As it stands, and given the alternatives, Mozilla #UX is overly malicious and I guess it would not pass any serious #GDPR compliance check.
Indeed I still wait for an answer to these questions: https://snac.tesio.it/giacomo/p/1770122154.401646
I guess it's because those model are updated frequently from #BigTech's servers around the world and Mozilla doesn't want people to realize how often their online status is revealed to such corporations through update checks by their " #privacy friendly" Firefox AI.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
@firefoxwebdevs Makes sense IMO, that's a better explanation. If the features don't run until the user explicitly wants to use the features, it's fine by me.
Does the AI Controls page specify that the AI models aren't downloaded until the specific feature(s) are used for the first time? Or does a linked help article from that page specify this?
It'd be nice to inform users about this in the browser, maybe even offer some details on how much storage the models use, and a link to the about:addons page for On-device AI to manage the installed models.
@alextecplayz here's the help page, so you can judge for yourself https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-ai-controls. We mostly refrain from using the term "opt-in" because people have different definitions of opt-in.
Models don't download until you engage with the feature, but some folks have said it's only opt-in if even the entry points are in a separate binary.
I asked for UI that shows downloaded models, but there wasn't time for that in 148. I'll keep asking for it 😀
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@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
Not the same thing #Firefox devs: I cannot do a video call without the microphone on, but I can totally open a new tab without #AI assistance!
So the first permission is required to serve my request, the second is just you advertizing a feature you want people to use.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
Not the same thing #Firefox devs: I cannot do a video call without the microphone on, but I can totally open a new tab without #AI assistance!
So the first permission is required to serve my request, the second is just you advertizing a feature you want people to use.
@alextecplayz@techhub.social
@giacomo @alextecplayz none of the current AI features are involved in opening a new tab.
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@firefoxwebdevs How long until an update re-enables all of these settings like you've been doing on the about:config AI related settings?
@Kiloku about:config is a place for flags and experiments, whereas these are dedicated user settings.
I know that doesn't prove anything, but I don't think proof can be provided in a single reply. The proof will be in respecting this setting over time.
@firefoxwebdevs Great, a switch you can 'accidentally' reset after every update to re-enable features nobody asked for, the way practically every other forced AI peddler has done, because AI enthusiasts either don't understand or care about consent.
@firefoxwebdevs This needs to be opt-in, not opt-out!
@firefoxwebdevs Nice, happy that that’s finally in there, although the flow is a bit obnoxious, I’ve seen less aggressive warnings on actions that permanently delete data, so putting it on a switch that can easily be turned back on still makes it feel that you want people to use it way too much.
Imagine getting a similar warning when turning off any other feature…
@ainmosni @firefoxwebdevs it does delete models. They can be re-downloaded, of course, but that might be significant disruption for some users
@jaffathecake @firefoxwebdevs About as much disruption as downloading them by default for the people who are flipping this switch, no? Hardly seems worthy of a bigger warning than deleting stuff from a hard drive.
@ainmosni @firefoxwebdevs when do they download by default?
@jaffathecake @firefoxwebdevs Aren’t they present before I click that toggle?
@ainmosni @jaffathecake only if you've opted in. The models are downloaded on-demand, when you interact with the feature.
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@firefoxwebdevs is 147 considered heavy-weighted (without the kill-switch)? Sometimes I need a lightweight Firefox to run on older androids and as usual as AI is I would rather give features up for performance.
As it stands right now 147 struggle to open tab lists.
@ada 147 isn't considered heavy weighted. Have you tried running without extensions to see if the issue is there?
@firefoxwebdevs
That's the first tying tried. The app works perfectly fine with or without but only when opening the tab list it differs from long delay.
I have tested with over 100 tabs in version 12x and it is still snappier than 147 with less than 50 tabs.
@ada would you feel comfortable filing a bug report about this on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/home?
@ada would you feel comfortable filing a bug report about this on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/home?
@firefoxwebdevs
Where is the full change log of android version located? I would like to find out which exact version introduced device/screen lock on private tabs - that seemed to be the issue.
@ada general release notes are at https://www.firefox.com/en-US/firefox/android/127.0/releasenotes/, you can also search bugzilla. But, what makes you suspect the screen lock?
@firefoxwebdevs
Not quite, sorry.
I rolled back to older version already.
@firefoxwebdevs too little, too late.
@firefoxwebdevs it should be disabled by default. Also telemetry and ads tracking killer switch when?
@firefoxwebdevs please make separate version without any AI, without translate (made by monolinguals) and call it betterfox. It will have succes! Also less code - less bugs, less mistakes and less vulnerabilities.
Less work - more output!
@firefoxwebdevs If you physically and permanently remove all AI-related code from Firefox, I might start using it again. Not until.
@firefoxwebdevs
It must be really uncomfortable for you and your team to see this outpouring of opposition to the direction you are being lead.
I hope you know its not personal. But you must understand that it is deadly serious.
Please, hear us as we all shout in unison: STOP WASTING MONEY AND ENERGY ON GRIFTS AND JUST MAKE THE BEST DAMN BROWSER YOU CAN MAKE.
@firefoxwebdevs “Block AI Enhancements” should be checked by default, ya ding dongs.
@firefoxwebdevs pretty nice, wish more software allowed this
@firefoxwebdevs You have lost all sense and sensibility. You have lost the plot. You are bleeding users and your idea to get them back is to introduce features NOBODY wants. You used to be a good alternative to corporate browsers, but you have become the evil you were fighting against. Good riddance.
@firefoxwebdevs Why isn't it enabled by default?
@iam @alternativeto That's the thing about choice, 'nope' is an option.
@firefoxwebdevs @alternativeto No, the choice is to use something else that doesn't have AI (which nobody asked for), and which should be disabled by default, not enabled. Read the room.
@firefoxwebdevs YES! Thank you.
@firefoxwebdevs
Better late than even later… thank you!
@firefoxwebdevs Sounds great. Fuck your browser.
@firefoxwebdevs Calling them "enhancements" sure is a choice.
@firefoxwebdevs I'll be switching remaining friends and family members over to Librewolf and/or Vivaldi before this update drops
AI in the browser is a disaster waiting to happen and it's sad to see Mozilla think so little of its users opinions
@viralobscurity both Librewolf and Vivaldi have built-in translation, which people overwhelmingly consider to be AI (https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115849251057488746). Vivaldi even sends the text to a server for translation.
Your choice is your own, but we are up-front about the AI features we have.
What Mozilla did: ⬆️
What the users actually wanted: ⬇️
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@duke_of_germany/115853330852766984
Regarding "[...] I'm not personally in a position to action results of such a poll":
Are you in the position to bring up the results of such a poll in a meeting with your team & boss?
And if so, did you?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs they're aware of the sentiment. I'm sure you're aware that Mastodon has a high representation of folks who don't like AI, so presenting evidence that Mastodon users don't like AI is kinda… well… not really useful.
No, Jake, I am not aware of this, and I do not believe this to be true.
Mastodon users might be special in the way they articulate their opinion, but by no means does this represent a fringe notion.
See for example the links in the reply of @jonny, or the ongoing AI-vote by DuckDuckGo: https://voteyesornoai.com/.
Ask an arbitrary group of people head on if they want genAI directly built into their software, and they will overwhelmingly say "no".
@duke_of_germany @jonny @jaffathecake @firefoxwebdevs lol damn, 175k votes, and a 3:1 gather ratio on the other unforced-options poll you ran
that's Some Numbers right there
wonder if they'll listen (wait, no, I don't wonder: https://mastodon.social/@froztbyte/116005140730818539)
Stop portraying Mastodon users as the "anti-AI crazies".
Instead, ask yourself: "What is the relation between Mastodon users & Firefox?"
The answer:
An overwhelming number of Mastodon users used to be your champions.
They are tech people who used to recommend Firefox to the normies in their life. A crowd of mini-influencers, recommending your product.
And I don't understand why you go out of your way to alienate exactly these people.
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@jaffathecake @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs i keep seeing this cop-out, but i have yet to see any polling from mozilla that says a majority of their users do want AI in their browser.
e.g. 14 days ago i see an informal poll in reddit with the same conclusion - https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1qhfvkw/interested_in_your_views_on_ai_in_firefox/
the thread inviting people to comment on the AI window a few weeks ago was the same thing, overwhelmingly negative - https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/building-ai-the-firefox-way-shaping-what-s-next-together/td-p/109922
so if in community after community people are nearly unanimous about the pivot to AI, it seems like the burden is on firefox dev team to show that there is some silent majority that is loving it rather than insisting that every community is an echo chamber
@firefoxwebdevs I wonder how many people will still complain…
//checkes the comments
that's about right - tiny vocal minority is still absurdly butthurt…
@firefoxwebdevs the default should be all of this turned off, without the passive aggressive UI.
@emma note that the models aren't downloaded & used until you opt-in to one of the features.
The 'block' here removes those opt-in entry points, and any like it in future.
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social
>Won't see features
I've seen that before with Brave. Their "complete removal of Leo" means "Remove UI elements from the user".
I am not convinced.
@sarah I'm not sure what we can do to convince you other than hold the promise over time.
@firefoxwebdevs @sarah maybe start by talking to your CEO:
> Firefox will remain our anchor. It will evolve into a modern AI browser and support a portfolio of new and trusted software additions.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozillas-next-chapter-anthony-enzor-demeo-new-ceo/
This vision is a huge reason why people are not convinced. That, and how getting Firefox to implement these controls at long last felt like pulling teeth.
@firefoxwebdevs @sarah the fact that this is the best you can do with a technology designed from the ground up to ignore/bypass consent, is exactly what's pissing everyone off.
The very fact that this technology is being implemented directly into the browser telegraphs the intention to not keep that promise.
@firefoxwebdevs AI crap like this has driven me back to using Lynx in the terminal for most of my browsing until I can find a browser not infected with Google, Apple, and now Firefox code. If I do need a graphic web browser I just us IronWolf and don't log into your account. I used to be a huge evangelist for your browser and other tools but no more. We have told you we don't want this, we want to support you and tell our friends to use you yet you make it impossible. For "Bob"'s sake LISTEN
Immediately restore the work of japanese language translators that you paved over with AI slop
https://linuxiac.com/ai-controversy-forces-end-of-mozilla-japanese-sumo-community/
🗣NOBODY ASKED FOR THIS AI BULLSHIT!!!
you’re traitors to the open web cause. this should have been an extension, not a complete integration in the browser.
@firefoxwebdevs boooo. AI shouldnt even be in the browser. Thats what the people told you.
@firefoxwebdevs Do you know if there will be a popup to let users know when it launches? (Like a product tour "what's new" type of thing?)
@mausmalone I don't think so. But of course it will be mentioned in release notes. We're not exactly being quiet about it.
@firefoxwebdevs I mean ... as much as I appreciate the transparency for the sort of people who follow release notes and developer channels, the whole idea of putting this is a user-friendly and straightforward settings page is to help the un-tech-savvy users who don't.
Like, both my wife and my kid use Firefox and they're NEVER gonna read a release note.
@firefoxwebdevs the tiny minority of people who choose to use firefox at all dont want AI. it should be off by default if its being shoehorned in anyway, but since mozilla doesnt care the least they could do is not neuter the name.
"kill switch" bites, "AI controls" licks
EDIT: misread formally as formerly, still dont like this
@firefoxwebdevs
Awesome! It seems like the controls are able to be customized.
Its great that Firefox is listening to users. Though the blog seems to have an error on my end, its possible its only on my machine. Its possible that some link is broken
@enthusiast101 huh, I'm not seeing that error. Could it be because of an extension?
@firefoxwebdevs
I just noticed that it is because of an extension, sorry for the mistake.
I have extension that converts yt links to invidious ones.
@firefoxwebdevs what's about mozconfig.cfg build option?
@firefoxwebdevs that being said, I actually love having local translation built into thr browser. It seems like the perfect use case for small language models that can be run on most laptops / desktop pcs today. Don't see a need to have the default setting to be off for that
@ar_do personally, I agree, but we'd have been accused of sneaking AI in if we didn't https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115849251057488746
@firefoxwebdevs love it! Its a refreshing alternative to Edge's "shove Copilot down users thought at every opportunity" switch, which I think has only one setting
@firefoxwebdevs That's awesome, but honestly that feature should have landed months ago. It's sad that it took so long to deliver such a 'simple' feature — it eroded trust needlessly :(
I understand it's hard to ship stuff, but we are talking about a toggle in preferences, so it was really frustrating not to see this shipped earlier.
Also, is that 'scare screen' really necessary? It's the same kind of trick we're always complaining about with FAANG products…
@firefoxwebdevs Too little. Too late.
@firefoxwebdevs This is FANTASTIC! Thank you guys for listening to feedback!
credit where credit is due
I'm still going to use Librewolf as trust on telemetry and ad-partnerships is not yet restored
@firefoxwebdevs "AI is changing the web, and people want very different things from it. We’ve heard from many who want nothing to do with AI. We’ve also heard from others who want AI tools that are genuinely useful."
Have you? Because I've literally only heard the former. See e.g. virtually every one of the 966 comments on https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/building-ai-the-firefox-way-shaping-what-s-next-together/td-p/109922
@mike @firefoxwebdevs Preference falsification, it's seen as socially condemnable to be ok with AI, especially in the circles that Mozilla frequents, so I'm not surprised public comments trend negative. Given they've sent an anonymous survey out, I'm pretty sure the balance is split between the no-AI and AI everything camps.
I don't get the vitriol towards Mozilla, at least not for this change, they literally show you how to turn off their AI features
@budududuroiu @mike @firefoxwebdevs It's not about being able to turn off the features. It's about having to download and store them and give implicit permission to have them on your computer in the first place.
It's like someone saying "Hey, I mailed you that stack of books you want, but people told us they wanted more pictures so we made illegal copies of artworks and bound them in. The art pages come with preset double-sided tape on them so it's easy for you to stick the art pages together and not see them if you don't want. No harm, no foul, right?"
The harm isn't in the viewing (or not viewing), it's in the implied consent to the unethical behavior that made the viewing possible, and in asking customers to fix it after the fact.
@firefoxwebdevs @robotistry @budududuroiu TBF, client-side translation is pretty cool, and generally better than sending the text to Google or similar.
@mike @firefoxwebdevs i want ai, that only runs locally
@firefoxwebdevs
And WHY were these "True" by default?
Why once even re-enabled?
Mozilla isn't trustworthy.
The so-called ML is an invasion of privacy and a waste of computing resource.
Go back to a Classic Firefox that's ONLY a browser and repects OS GUI look & feel instead of copying Google.
@raymaccarthy about:config isn't intended to be for user settings. That's why we've created a dedicated AI controls page, and we're the first to do so.
@firefoxwebdevs you should've have needed to be the first, you should never have added things users don't want. Make it plugins, then users can choose to add disgusting "AI" "features". @raymaccarthy
@firefoxwebdevs
You are missing the point!
The features should not exist! So then no need for a master switch in the main settings.
Firefox has got so broken it needs loads of settings changed in About.config and even then is LESS USEABLE than 10 or 15 years ago.
I've been using Websites since 1994. Mosaic, Netscape, Firefox.
Of course I've used most of the others.
@raymaccarthy @firefoxwebdevs You have never needed to use about:config. You can still quite happily browse the web using Firefox without going into about:config.
@plwt @firefoxwebdevs
The word "happily" is out of context.
I have used Chrome (Android/ChromeOS)_, Edge (windows), IE (various cursed versions on Windows) and Safari (Apple Things) to "browse the web" and get a different browser such as Firefox, seamonkey, Vivaldi, Waterfox, Chromium and others.
I'd be on Vivaldi if about:config didn't exist. The only reason I'm not is more flexible script blocking on Firefox to suit TheGuardian web news.
@raymaccarthy @plwt fwiw Vivaldi does have AI features like translation, and it even sends text to the cloud to perform that translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs
Why not ship a version with ZERO AI?
I know you'll likely get a whole bunch of negative feedback on Fedi for not going even further, but at least this appears to *clearly and unambiguously* put the user in control in a way that does not require digging through about:config settings and worrying about what an upgrade will do. So I am cautiously optimistic about this.
Can you say anything about when those of us who are on the ESR update track can expect to see this? Will there be a policy setting to control this?
@mkj I don't know the answer to this off the top of my head, but I'll find out and get back to you.
@mkj the next major ESR release is 153.0esr. That will include all features between Fx140 and Fx153 and is scheduled to ship on 2026-06-21.
In terms of policy: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2005805
@firefoxwebdevs Oh boy! The feature we shouldn't need, to kill off the features we never asked for!
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs Don’t write "we“ where you should have written "I“. I find many AI features useful.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @Mastokarl That's nice. How does that affect what I DON'T want and/or the people I don't trust?
@woo @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs Exactly my point. Don’t say „we“, implying everyone here has the same opinion.
@Mastokarl @firefoxwebdevs You might find yourself in a creative void.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs Now that‘s the big question: are the very outspoken crowd that hates AI features a majority of Firefox users or are they just very outspoken while those like such features but just don‘t care enough about them to speak up (against the outspoken crowd which can be stressful) here. I don‘t know.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @Mastokarl Why does it matter? Don't make things some people strongly don't like the default. Loud music in public, authoritarianism, gang rape.
@firefoxwebdevs please, set the block as active by default and only set AI features as "opt-in"
@madduci @firefoxwebdevs afaik the default is already opt in in a way - for example, the link summary feature asks you if you want to enable summarisation before actually doing anything.
the point of the block is a browser wide, 'don't even ask' toggle
@firefoxwebdevs @tay @madduci that feels more like "hide" than "block" to me
@firefoxwebdevs that UI looks like someone really wanted to rub in the face of users "you are missing out on".
- form with long description text
- use "block" as naming instead of a plain "disable" (implies that this is a strong action on my part)
- big warning popup that names all the things again
- showing all the things anyway (but I just said no! Respect that!)
Dial FOMO to 100.
That feels really wrong.
Manipulative.
@ArneBab "block" was picked deliberately, as it's removing all entry points to the feature, not just disabling the feature (e.g. disabled buttons are still there, but these are BLOCKED).
It was important to show the features individually so you can control them individually. E.g. translation is something people explicitly wanted to be able to re-enable https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115849251057488746
@firefoxwebdevs so i "re-enable" stuff I want after "blocking"?
re-enable calls for "disable" as the other part.
What that "block" does is "set default to disable" and "disable all" that we all know from the law-compliant cookie-banners.
Or rather: "make AI opt-in".
Non-manipulative suggestion:
Button [disable all] ⇒ disables all AI options.
Added Option: [enable future AI features by default] ← gets disabled alongside the individual options when clicking [disable all].
@ArneBab it doesn't just disable all existing feature, it also auto-disables future AI features, or 'blocks' them from even appearing in the UI.
@firefoxwebdevs that’s what I mean with
[ ] enable future features by default.
and I’m writing my impression as feedback and this suggestion, because my reaction to the new block option was visceral.
Just seeing the workflow of enabling the block evoked the strong feeling that I’m being pulled by the nose into "do you really want to block? Why not enable just this one feature" (as drug dealers do) instead of my choice being respected.
And that does not match my usual feeling towards Firefox.
@ArneBab but it doesn't enable future feature by default.
You're blocking the entry points to these features, so they cannot be enabled.
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@firefoxwebdevs @ArneBab
No, you've lost the plot!
@firefoxwebdevs Great. Make it the default. Listen to the survey.
@fabio @firefoxwebdevs survey only shows a tiny fraction of the total userbase. why it should influencethe default?
@wojtek @firefoxwebdevs What do you think about the ethical concerns?
@nikclayton @firefoxwebdevs of the AI? I would dance on the bonfire on bigtech ;)
alas -- I do find certain uses of LLMs (not necesarily what altman is doing) in general having some uses… that's all.